There is No Religion Higher Than Truth

Republications from the theos-talk mailing list with some comments by the Editor

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There is an interesting discussion taking place on the theos_talk mailing list - or I should rather say, an interesting inquiry, about the ownership and moderation of that mailing list, from the part of some members of that group, which do not receive adequate answer. The theos-talk mailing list has respectful tradition of being the most longstanding open theosophical forum launched in May 1996 and consequently moderated by Eldon Tucker who managed to retain it through all these years as the most liberal theosophical mailing list with excellent archives which represent a real treasure for theosophical inquirers. Looking at first posts on theos_talk one can read: - Theosophy in action was described by Helena Blavatsky in the following quote. May all contributors to Theosophy World keep these ideals in mind as we use those "living messengers" words : "The essence of Theosophy is the perfect harmonizing of the divine with the human in man, the adjustment of his god-like qualities and aspirations, and their sway over the terrestrial or animal passions in him. Kindness, absence of every ill feeling or selfishness, charity, good-will to all beings, and perfect justice to others as to one's self, are its chief features. He who teaches Theosophy preaches the gospel of good-will; and the converse of this is true also, - he who preaches the gospel of good-will, teaches Theosophy." [BCW 9, 245] - posted by Nicholas Weeks, and - For my part, I am thrilled to have a fresh list with kind people to talk to about Theosophy. I have really high hopes for this board, and I hope that any disputes which MIGHT arise can be handled nobly. - posted by Rich Taylor, and - For my part, I would like to see a constructive discussion concerning what we as theosophists can do to promote the TM. IMO, the Organizations range from limited to worthless in their ability to serve the TM in these times, and in some cases are damaging to it. – posted by Jerry Hejka Ekins.
Joining the theos_talk just few years ago I could recognize that some of these early aspirations still pervades the list and profiting from it I tried to contribute that little I was able to offer. During past events in the Theosophical Society, Adyar, the theos_talk continued to play an important role in shedding light on some issues which would otherwise remain obscure. But, unfortunately, the mailing list was gradually, step by step, becoming what I personally see as a propaganda machine for the assertion of views in support of the current administration at the TS Adyar Headquarters, with an active disqualification of different ones and non-transparent moderation. There are obviously many members of the theos_talk mailing list, including myself, who are disappointed with this development and would like to see it returning back on old track. It seems that this cannot happen if the answers to the questions raised during the discussion will not be given. And as now on the theos_talk list there is present the tendency to fog these questions with irrelevant postings “about salad”, as we use to say in Slovenia, I am republishing here all relevant posts. For the title of this web page I used the TS motto: “There is No Religion Higher Than Truth” because MKR, the theos_talk current moderator, loves to use it to underlie his observations. So, let us see how faithful he is to this motto when he is challenged to reveal the actual situation concerning his personal attitude and the ownership and moderation of the theos_talk mailing list.  

Anton Rozman

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Go to the last addition

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Comments on Independence / MKR, 28.07.2010 - Message #54523
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54523

All organized entities such as governments, business corporations, spiritual organizations, and even individual leaders and politicians are always on the look out for opportunities to influence the individuals such as membership and even media people to either keep them in line or influence them to act or write in ways supporting the activities and action of the organizations and its leaders or even act as cat's paws to handle touchy issues. Many times, clever individuals and leaders will stay back in the background and let others do their dirty work.
In organizations, range of techniques used may be outright giving money grants, reimbursing the travel expenses, offer platforms to lecture or write or even help them to move up in the leadership ladder. In theosophical circles, due to the common membership in other officially unconnected organizations, the fear of paying a price will keep writers and lecturers in line with official wishes.
The reason why I bring this up is because it is necessary to clarify my personal position in all activities and writings related to theosophical and other issues. Firstly, as I have mentioned several times before, I maintain my independence because of several reasons. I am not looking forward to hold any elected office in future and I have an independent lively hood which does not depend on TS or any of its members. Also in the past I have never received any manner of financial support from TS or any of its members.
I am reiterating the above so that the newbees are very clear as to where I come from and the independence gives some credibility to what I write on this and other theosophical forums. In today's Internet environment, transparent and open clarification of the independence issue is good for anyone in the cyberspace - writers, participants, website owners, website operators etc. I hope the above clarification helps.

MKR

There is No Religion Higher Than Truth

Re: Comments on Independence and impartiality / Katinka, 28.07.2010 - Message #54524
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54524

Hi MKR,

That's great to hear, but not really what people are concerned about I think.
Let's go back a bit. At the Theosophical World Congress, and through email in the days after it, several people expressed their concern to me that your management of theos-talk was not impartial. That is: you have sensored people who had perfectly decent contributions to make (Preetthi and Govert and perhaps more) and seemed informed extraordinarily quickly of any movement on the part of Radha/Pedro etc.
Hearing that, and thinking that Eldon was still ultimately in charge of this list, I asked him to use his authority to get the list back on track, or close it. Whichever he preferred. He probably contacted you - and the below is your response.
Personally I don't give a darn whether you make money on theosophy or not. Obviously it is easier to be critical for those who aren't in the employ of the TS, but that doesn't mean that those who aren't - are necessarily impartial. They're just financially independent of the TS - which is the situation for most of us here.
For me, and several of my correspondents - the question is: why has theos-talk stopped being the open forum it used to be?
And more specifically: how come you use several email addresses to post on here? What are you trying to hide? In fact, the speculation has come up that MKR hides several people on several continents.
Now I'm all for freedom and would have preferred for theosophical.ning.com to stay open for everybody and the search engines. Glad some of us set up theosophy.net last year: it IS open (just checked).
However, I'm also all for accountability. The internet gives us all the opportunity to hide behind screen names and loose all fairness in the process. No need to be polite or just when nobody knows who you are.
Now - in case this gets censored - I will be saving the text of this on my pc. I don't really want to post it elsewhere, but I do think the below has made a response necessary.
I will also be deleting any links to theos-talk on my own sites BTW as it doesn't seem like this forum serves any purpose to the theosophical movement any more.

Best wishes,
Katinka Hesselink

Disclosure: The Dutch TS paid me for their recent redesign, so I guess I'm not independent by your definition. That hasn't stopped me from speaking out where I see fit though.

Re: Comments on Independence and impartiality / Erica, 28.07.2010 - Message #54526
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54526

I am surprised to know the list is censored. As member of theos-talk for many years, the element of freedom was always present and everyone could post.
I think that Eldon and Ramadoss should discuss about the current policy of censoring posts, and restore the list to its normal activities.
Those persons who were censored, should have send their post to theos-net along with a protest for censoring.
Ramadoss many members have been complaining about the secrecy which pervades the moves of some leaders and sections. All the conflict that happened in the last elections, was mainly because of the proposal to remove the rights of members to vote for International President. And you are one of the persons who most complained about such tactics.
So if we want a T.S. more democratic and open, we should settle the example. The price paid for a democratic system, is that not always pleasant things are said or stated. But people have freedom to express themselves.
About the speculation Katinka mentioned, this do not surprise me at all. After all there is group in the T.S. sustaining and promoting a theory of conspiracy and specially attacking the Brazilian Section. There was a post even considering the invitation of Ricardo Lindemann a controversial choice, because he belongs to the Brazilian Section. If I am not wrong Katinka made such a comment. Maybe in the mind of some people, every Brazilian should be excluded from activities, as the Section is the target for different accusations.
My personal opinion on this matter is that: if there is a problem with the Brazilian Section, the members of the Section should deal with it, and solve the problem. Furthermore we should be careful before considering excluding someone because of accusations without substantial proofs. Because exclusions are made not only in online forums, but also in activities organized by the T.S.. So or we are against this kind of policy in every area, or we are hypocrites.
As far as I know the people who are using many e-mails and sending anonymous messages with threats, is the side "against Radha." Actually they went as far as to create an e-mail address in hushmail, to send their anonymous messages so they cannot be traced. So a person, who does this kind of things, naturally will think that others can do it also.
Either way the point of this post is that censoring posts or excluding people is not right.

Erica

p.s. Someone may say that messages had to be pre-approved in the blog I created, during the controversy of the disfranchising proposal, so there was not freedom. This is the way I prefer to work with blogs, even my personal blog has the same policy. But nobody can ever say that a comment sent to that blog was censored. Such a thing never happened.

Re: Comments on Independence and impartiality / Govert, 28.07.2010 - Message #54530
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54530

Dear Katinka and MKR,

Katinka, before people get a wrong impression, I have to state that I have never been censored on this forum. I'm free to post and I assume my contributions are still in the archive.
MKR, your position on independence can be read as an a priori disqualification of people who have derived a material compensation from an organization and those who are in leadership positions doling out the compensations. It also gives undue weight to those who are materially independent from the TS like yourself. I think that's a prejudice and not helpful if you want to make this group more hospitable to any and all Theosophists, especially its leadership.
Most Adyar Theosophists stay away here because they experience this group as badly managed, even toxic, though many might lurk to catch tid-bits of news, leaks, facts and gossip, which might not be available anywhere else.
I do appreciate your insistence on organizational transparency and better use of technology for communication.

Best
Govert

Re: Comments on Independence and impartiality / Katinka, 29.07.2010 - Message #54534
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54534

Hi Govert,

I think you're being too kind.
Didn't several messages mysteriously disappear from the archives? That sort of thing doesn't just happen - someone has to actively DELETE it & it makes sense that that someone would be the owner/manager of theos-talk. AKA MKR. Just because no one admitted to deleting those messages, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And deleting a message after it was published is still a form of censorship / moderation.
Moderation is fine - as long as it's clear that there is moderation, and what the criteria are. In this case there is supposedly NO moderation, and therefore no open criteria either.
I'm referring to this conversation: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/50276
And on here you can see the messages are still missing: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/messages/43528
Indeed it would be hard to get them to show up again. Yahoo groups does not allow for hiding messages, or retrieving them from some recycle bin. Once gone, they're gone.

Best wishes,
Katinka

Re: Comments on Independence and impartiality / MKR, 29.07.2010 - Message #54538
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54538

Thanks for the msg.

When I find some time, I will try to share my views on some of the items you mentioned.

MKR

Re: Comments on Independence and impartiality / Govert, 29.07.2010 - Message #54539
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54539

Dear Katinka & MKR,

Almost forgot about that. My question was: "Anybody knows why the msgs. ## 43528-43531 were removed from the theos-talk database?"
I never got an answer not knowing who might have been responsible.
Katinka states MKR might have been responsible.
So, MKR, the question is to you: Did you or did you not remove those messages? Or do you know who did? And if so, why?
Because this is supossed to be an almost non-moderated group, it should be clear, when some messages disappear, why that is happening.
Meanwhile, does anybody still have in its folder all the April 15, 2008 messages? The 4 missing ones were send on that day.
A side effect of this is that this issue brings back the troubling days of the 2008 PTS election. Will this issue be shelved by collective amnesia or should the many unresolved issues be re-examined? Obviously by posing the question in a serious way the second option becomes active.

Best
Govert

Comments on Independence etc, / MKR, 28.07.2010 - Message #54525
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54525

Your response is well appreciated. Let me add a few short comments.
Many in the theosophical circles know my name and that I live in San Antonio, Texas. Everyone knows that for my postings I use the email address - MKR777_at_GMAIL.COM. I know of no other theosophist with my name Ramadoss.
When the message is sent from gmail it will show my name as MKR. When I use the yahoo web interface to post a message, the email address is still MKR777_at_GMAIL.COM whereas my yahoo name [ramadoss226] shows .
I sign my messages as MKR or Ramadoss. Long time ago, I used my real nick name -Doss- and I no longer use it on msgs posted here and elsewhere to avoid confusion between my name and that of another well known and well respected theosophist who lives in my city and whose name is Doss.
As for the list and fairness of its management, I leave it to the subscribers to judge. As is always the case, not everyone will agree with every decision one takes in life.
By the way the response you quoted on your contact with Eldon was his and not mine. I hope it was a typo.

MKR

There is no religion higher than truth

My email address / Katinka, 30.07.2010 - Message #54541
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54541

HI,

Yes, I don't know where my correspondents got the 'several mail adresses' thing from. I see you posting from one yahoo id - ramados226.
This is really not the main issue I was trying to address though. Your semi-anonymity just ads to distrust of you in certain quarters.
The censorship thing is the issue people are really concerned about.
I do think it's rather typical that you choose to address the side issue, instead of the main one.
But now that we're talking about the side issue: any reason your yahoo id is hidden? For someone claiming that we need more transparency in the TS, semi-anonymity just doesn't look so good.

Katinka

My email address / MKR, 30.07.2010 - Message #54543
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54543

Let me also add that I sign my messages as MKR and to indicate that the author is me so there should be no doubt in anyone's mind who the author is. I hope there is no more confusion on this issue.

MKR

"why has theos-talk stopped being the open forum it used to be?" / Daniel, 31.07.2010 - Message #54553
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54553

Katinka wrote:
"why has theos-talk stopped being the open forum it used to be?"
I have not been attentive too much of late to what is going on at Theos-Talk but I find Katinka's words quite troubling.
I ask:
Who is the current owner of the list?
And who is the moderator?
And are posts being censored or deleted?
I thought Theos-Talk was an open forum.
I hope that Eldon or MKR or whoever is in charge will clarify these questions as well as several points made by Katinka.

Daniel
Blavatsky Study Center

Re: "why has theos-talk stopped being the open forum it used to be?" / Daniel, 05.08.2010 - Message #54594
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54594

So these questions as I listed below remain unanswered. Why is that?
Again the relevant questions are:
Who is the current owner of the list?
And who is the moderator?
And are posts being censored or deleted?
These questions need to be answered especially since Katinka posted a series of serious observations and questions.

Daniel

Re: "why has theos-talk stopped being the open forum it used to be?" / Nigel, 05.08.2010 - Message #54598
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54598

Dear All
I support Daniel's call for these questions to be answered. MKR has railed constantly and vehemently about the need for openness and transparency. He has been relentless in his attacks on those who launched an alleged secret takeover. MKR, please answer the questions. Are you secretly censoring this list?

Regards
Nigel

Eldon and Doss - Transparency request / Erica, 05.08.2010 - Message #54599
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54599

Dear Eldon and Doss,
Please clarify the following points:
I understand there was a post, linked to Anton site that disappeared. At this point you should explain, why this post is no longer on the archives.
What is the policy for censoring posts, if any.
Who decide to censor a post? Doss alone? Eldon and Doss? Someone else?
Please clarify the rules and policy of the forum, and also what happened with the mentioned post.

Erica

Theos-talk policy and missing post(s) / Erica, 06.08.2010 - Message #54620
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54620

Dear Doss,

Are you planning to go on ignoring the questions about the policy of the forum, and about the post which disappeared?

Erica

Re: policy and missing post(s) / Daniel, 07.08.2010 - Message #54635
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54635

Erica,

I second your question.
For all the talk here over many months for the need of "greater credibility" and "transparency" on the part of various Theosophical organizations, wouldn't it be nice if these questions about Theos-talk that you, Nigel, Katinka and I have asked would be simply answered.

Daniel

Re: policy and missing post(s) / Nigel, 07.08.2010 - Message # 54636
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54636

Dear Daniel

May I suggest that it is more significant than merely "nice."
This is a matter of honour and integrity and strikes at the heart of a person's character.
If MKR cannot live by the standards he has demanded of others he has a duty not to criticize them.
To do otherwise is utter hypocrisy.
I assume that he is unaware of the gravity of his silence and can only trust that he will quickly realise the double standards he appears to be practicing and correct them.

Kind regards
Nigel

Documenting the Inquiries about the ownership & moderation of Theos-Talk / Daniel, 07.08.2010 - Message #54643
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54643

All that has been going on here concerning the inquries about the ownership & moderation of Theos-Talk and the lack of answers from the powers that be are now be documented elsewhere on the web.

See Anton Rozman's webapage with all the questions, etc. at: http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/TheosTalk_Truth.htm

Daniel

Re: policy and missing post(s) / Nigel, 07.08.2010 - Message # 54647
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54647

Dear MKR

I have written many times on the subject of mindset both in this forum and elsewhere. In this context a mindset concerns the manner in which our thoughts operate through conditioned habituation or deliberate training.
Buddhism and mysticism are perhaps foremost in addressing the nature of mind, exposing its functioning, processes and most of all, its vested interests that divert us from that which is real.
An oft-quoted passage from Madame Blavatsky's Voice of the Silence states, "The mind is the great slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer."
This is a call for us to investigate how our mind operates; where it is useful and where it is deceptive and destructive. Until we take up this investigation we will continue to respond and react to situations from an often mindless, habit conditioned state; a state that is rooted in fear, with its commensurate tendencies towards insecurity and inferiority.
This fear originates from our earliest biological environment, where physical survival was paramount. This has evolved into the need for emotional and mental survival.
From these perceived survival needs we have erected strong and powerful physical and mental structures to protect us from fear. From these structures we have created a sense of certainty which brings with it feelings of power and control; and the perception of safety. There is perhaps no more comforting feeling to most than safety, and in this context, the safety of feeling that we are right in our opinion or the stand we are taking is comforting indeed.
Unfortunately this perceived certainty can also give rise to confidence and its extreme form, arrogance. This mindset is easily recognizable in religious funda-mentalism and politics.
The only safeguard against this deceptive mind trap with all its accompanying pain, ignorance and blindness is freedom; freedom for all to think and express without fear of censorship or retaliation.
Freedom enables courage, equality, fairness and justice; intrinsic Theosophical principles.
MKR, there are good people in this forum who are deeply concerned at the direction you are taking it.
I entreat you not to ignore them as if their concerns are worthless and your opinion is the only correct one.
Be brave and respectful; fill up the "worn grooves."

Regards
Nigel

Re: policy and missing post(s) / Sampsa, 08.08.2010 - Message # 54651
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54651

Many good comments here.
We all like theosophical news that MKR gives and respect his work for the list, but we think that now he should answer the questions.
Why this silence? Where is openness? The list doesn't have a secret owner, does it?

Sampsa

Re: theos-talk Re: policy and missing post(s) / Bill, 08.08.2010 - Message # 54652
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54652

I wish to add my voice to those asking MKR to respond to the questions that have been asked. A clear statement of policy regarding the management/moderation/censorship of this list is a reasonable request.

Refusing to answer questions from members of the group can be viewed as arrogance. More than that, it can make the members feel unheard, unimportant, and eventually disenfranchised. Hardly theosophical, in my opinion.

Eldon's Posting on Sun July 26, 2009 about Theos-Talk / Daniel, 08.08.2010 - Message #54656
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54656

This is what Eldon Tucker posted on Theos-Talk on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:15 pm
----------------------------------------------
Theos-l is the oldest online theosophical mailing last. It was started by John Mead in early 1993, and currently has 48 subscribers on Yahoo Groups. Its earlier archives are on theos-l.com (about 24,000 messages).
The theos-talk list was started by Eldon Tucker in June 1996 and currently has 364 subscribers on Yahoo Groups.Its full archives on theos-talk.com (about 61,000 messages). Both lists are independent, free of political and financial control by theosophical organizations.
Theos-talk is intended to be a place where friends and students of theosophy can exchange their ideas without having to conform to any particular organization's approach to the subject. Diversity of views are encouraged; no one particular theosophical author or interpretation of the subject is considered the truth. It is also available as a means to share news of interest to the theosophical community. In order to preserve this freedom of thought, the list maintains both political and doctrinal neutrality, taking sides with no particular author, organization, nor candidate or faction within an organization.
Routine maintenance of the list may be done by volunteers as their time permits, such as M.K. Ramadoss, recently agreeing to help out. This should not prevent them from being vigorous participants in the list. Everyone will be working in the best interest of the list. It's good to have administrators who are highly active in the list; they truly care about what is going on and want to see it prosper. - Eldon

Here's a note from Ramadoss:

Recently Eldon asked me to help with theos-talk. I'll be assisting with routine list maintenance. I'm glad to do my part to see the list help theosophists and the theosophical movement in the coming years.
--------------------------------------
Quoted from:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/52456

I Have Emailed Eldon Tucker the following / Daniel, 08.08.2010 - Message #54657
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54657

Sun, August 8, 2010 7:18:33 AM
To ELDON: What is going on?

Hi Eldon,
What is going on with theos-talk?
See:
http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/TheosTalk_Truth.htm
Please don't ignore this.

Daniel

Re: theos-talk I Have Emailed Eldon Tucker the following / Sufilight, 08.08.2020 - Message #54659
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54659

Dear friends

My views are:
Thanks Daniel.
I guess the following is the central part in your link:
-------------------------------------------------
(Quote! Please, see the original message by following the link above. - Editor)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
M. SUFILIGHT SAYS:
I would call that a very personal view about a new assistent attached to the forums moderation.
Are anyone able to back this view with some substantial documentation?
____________
H. P. BLAVATSKY and THE ORIGINAL PROGRAME on backbiting and slander...and similar...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Quotes! Please, see the original message by following the link above. - Editor)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comment by Editor
Explanation to Morten

Dear Morten,
The Slovenian expression - postings "about salad" or "talking about salad" does not mean that the post or "talk about salad" is insignificant but that it is irrelevant to the current discussion or the post title. For instance, the title of the above Daniel's post is "I Have Emailed Eldon Tucker the following", but in your reply you then treat an excerpt from this web page and quotes from HPB's Original Programme. The Slovenian expression "talking about salad" therefore means conscious or unconscious distraction from the theme in discussion. This kind of approach towards important discussions was one of the main reasons for my decision to cease to participate in the discussions on theos_talk and will continue to do so under the current moderation.

Best regards,
Anton Rozman

Re: Documenting the Inquiries about the ownership & moderation of Theos-Talk / Govert, 08.08.2010 - Message #54661
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54661

Dear Daniel,

Thanks for posting this link. Very helpfull. And thanks to Anton for setting it up.
I do not agree though with Anton's statement:
"... the mailing list was gradually, step by step, becoming what I personally see as a propaganda machine for the assertion of views in support of the current administration at the TS Adyar Headquarters, with an active disqualification of different ones and non-transparent moderation."
Participants were free to express their opinions on both sides of the many issues. I don't think anyone was disqualified for having contrarian opinions regarding Adyar and/or Olcott. If some are vocal and repetitive in their support of current administrations, well, that is their good right.
At this moment I see the core issue as a more technical one: Why were certain posts removed from the archive?
The second issue now arrising is: Why are the moderator and owner of the list not answering that question?
And if no answer is forthcoming a third question will loom: Is this group losing its integrity and what should be done about that?

Govert

Comment by Editor
Explanation to Govert

Dear Govert,
When still active on the theos_talk group I explained why I personally see "... the mailing list ... becoming ... a propaganda machine for the assertion of views in support of the current administration at the TS Adyar Headquarters". Unfortunately, I don't keep records of my postings therefore I can not supply links to that postings. But if someone cares the postings are in the archives.
In regard to your statement that "Participants were free to express their opinions on both sides of the many issues," I received first hand information that posts of two reliable persons were blocked, therefore I think that there was going on "an active disqualification of different" views. This was mentioned also in one of the previous posts related to this discussion by another participant.

Best regards,
Anton Rozman

I've retired and Ramadoss is doing the work / Eldon, 08.08.2010 - Message #54662
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54662

Hi Everyone,

Last year, I enlisted Ramadoss to help with the administrative functions of theos-talk, since I had less time to devote to it. We've seen him around since November 1995 on the predecessor list theos-l and then on theos-talk when it was started.
In July, I fully turned over the list to his management. Currently, he is the only list owner, and I am a regular subscriber to the list. Over the past year, he has been on a learning curve, so there's always the change an occasional mistake made be made, but I'm confident that he has the best of intentions and is a dedicated advocate of free speech.
I'll comment on the current policy of the list, which should still be in effect until differing circumstances arise and Ramadoss decides in his best judgment that it's time for change.
New subscribers start off as moderated, but they get an initial email that tells them the moderation will be in effect only for a short while, during which they can read and observe the operation of the list. If they make an initial inappropriate message or turn out to be a spammer, they can be filtered out at that point. They're still free to post to the list, but their postings will be reviewed and they may possibly get feedback on them before the postings go out. Previous subscribers would be exempt from this; their subscription requests would be recognized and they would be unmoderated right away.
When a new subscriber is ready to fully participate, they're asked to post to the list a description of who they are and what their background is. This is because the only cause for removal, apart from troll-like behavior where the list is flooded with messages and many people are offended and driven off, is to pretend to be someone else on the list. The only exception would be if someone lived in a country where if they fully identified themselves, they might be subject to persecution, in which case they could use a pseudonym if they just explained that to the list owner.
Any subject relevant to theosophical inquiry is open for discussion, but spamming, flooding the list with unrelated content, or otherwise trying to take over the list for some other purpose would be unacceptable. If a thread is repetitive, inflammatory, and only serving to anger people, and complaints are being received, it's up to the best judgment of the person managing the list to change the subject or end the stuck discussion. Personal emails to the participants may be appropriate, but if some individuals won't respond, temporarily putting them on moderated status may be appropriate until they stop posting on the tread. This is not to say that the same issues may not arise again in the future in some other discussion, but sometimes it's necessary to say, "Enough, let's move on." The persons wanting to get in the last word on the subject may be unhappy if they're the ones told to move on, but there's no point in any discussion where everyone equally gets the last word.
If there is something going on and someone wants to know what's really happening, the most accurate approach is to get information from the source. With Skype, it's possible to call anyone in the world for free (if they have Skype) or inexpensively if they don't. There's no excuse for someone not to simply clarify things by getting in touch with Ramadoss directly. I'm confident that he's operating with the best of intentions. The only thing he may be guilty of is having too strong an opinion on issues regarding theosophical politics, but I don't think that a participant should think that he or she isn't given a fair chance to share their differencing views because of that.
Which the exception of what I've mentioned – newbie moderation until they're identified themselves and temporary moderation of a participant if he or she won't stop on a thread that has been closed for further discussion by the list owner – I don't believe there are any existing controls, and these two controls are necessary on any functional list that wants to preserve free inquiry.
Any questions about the operation of the list should be directed to Ramadoss. I wish him success in his role as list owner, and hope that everyone will help him as he completes his learning curve and comes to do an excellent job at keeping the list free and fully functional.

Eldon

Re: theos-talk I've retired and Ramadoss is doing the work / Govert, 09.08.2010 - Message #54667
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54667

Dear Eldon,

Thank you for the overview of the history and policies of this group.
From it I understand that you were co-administrator with Ramdoss till last month.
Can you then give us here an explanation for the disappearance of the July 16, 2008 posts ## 43528-43531?

Govert

Sorry, correction on the date: The relevant posts were on April 15, 2008. (Govert, 09.08.2010 - Message #54669)

Excerpt from Wikipedia
Propaganda

Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
See also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda#Techniques

Msgs 43528-43531 / MKR, 09.08.2010 - Message #54680
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54680

The messages posted to theos-talk is on yahoo servers. After the end of the month, the messages are permanently archived at www.theos-talk.com. It is open to public. They are accessible by month. Looking at the messages posted during 4/2008, I find that messages 43528 to 43531 are there in this file. The link is provided below.
So these messages are available for posterity for anyone to access. It could not be determined why they are not on the yahoo servers data base. I hope this msg helps those looking for these msgs.
http://theos-talk.com/archives/months/TK200804.TXT

MKR
There is no religion higher than Truth

Re: Theos-talk Msgs 43528-43531 / Govert, 10.08.2010 - Message #54681
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54681

Dear Ramadoss,

Thanks for clarifying, ... finally.
When I obtained the missing messages from another source (see below) I was struck by the fact that all the 4 messages had been posted by Jokela Petri, but were quite harmless in nature.
Actually, one of them was a response to a question posed by you and you did respond to another one of her missing messages, and thereby preserved its content. From this I have to conclude that there was not any censorship going on.
It still is a mystery that they disappeared.
Now with the questions solved surrounding your e-mail adress and your (non-)role in the missing posts, I hope Katinka will reconsider her intended leaving of this list.

Govert

Deletion of Messages by Poster / MKR, 10.08.2010 - Message #54683
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54683

From time to time, one may post a msg to the list, and in retrospect one my want to clean up by removing it from the list. Many are in the belief that this cannot be done. Yes, it can be done. A clarification is in order so everyone is aware of the process/procedure for message deletion.
When a message is posted to the list, it is stored in yahoo servers. After the end of the month, the messages are permanently archived to www.theos-talk.com.
Whenever a poster wants to clean up their messages by removing them, it can be done by the poster by signing to the list on the web and deleting their messages. Once deleted, the msg is gone for ever and cannot be restored.
However, any deletion by the poster has to be done before they are archived to www.theos-talk.com. Once archived, poster cannot remove any messages.
I hope this helps everyone.

MKR
There is no religion higher than Truth

The theos_talk group Description / Anton, 10.08.2010 - Message #54686
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/54686

After one of the latest posts on this list it become obvious to me that the theos_talk group Description does not correspond to the reality of facts any more. Therefore, I decided to leave the group. For the sake of fairness the web page http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/TheosTalk_Truth.htm will remain open to give the opportunity to the theos_talk owner and moderator to answer all open questions if he will decide to do so.
To give an opportunity to those members of the theos_talk list and other theosophists who would like to have a similar online space for free discussion on the history and future of the Theosophical Movement I have created new Yahoo group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theosophicalmovement/.
If there will be enough interest present it will become active. Those interested can contact me through e-mail address: theosophicalmovement@yahoogroups.com.
Finally, I would like to express my gratitude to all active members of this list for sharing their thoughts and wisdom - I have learned much.

So, thanks again, good luck and warmest regards to all,
Anton

The theos_talk group Description: Discussion on topics regarding Theosophy (or theosophy) and its realization in the modern world. A forum completely independent of control by established theosophical organizations.

Comment by Editor
Due to the lack of interest the Yahoo group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theosophicalmovement/ - was closed.

Final comment by Editor
As I am not member of the theos-talk list any more I will not add additional republication of posts to this web page except theos_talk owner and moderator answers to the questions which remain unanswered.

Hopefully the last comment by Editor

After the publication of Mrs. Nelda Samarel's private message concerning the invitation to the TS members to send their greetings in regard to Mrs. Joy Mills' birthday on the theos_talk list by the owner and moderator of that group I decided to close this web page.

Recently there appeared on that list another message (Message #54800) which includes also the following: “... Recently a theosophist friend of mine was commenting that the archives contain extremely important historical material for the posterity ...” In case that these words are in any way connected to the introductory text on this web page I would like to say that I am honored when whoever considers me to be her/his friend but this doesn't mean that I appreciate or have anything to do with this kind of behavior which I consider manipulative and non-theosophical.